Definition of Opinion:  A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof.

Please be respectful to others with differing opinions. 

Mary Powers (Evans)

DeWitt Bacon

Richard, there you go again in 12243. You quoted section 3 of the 14th Amendment correctly, but in your comment afterward, you did nothing but assert your opinions. Here's the sticky point. Section 3 says, "...SHALL HAVE engaged in insurrection or rebellion..." (Bold and capitalized  emphasis mine) How can you say he engaged in an insurrection when he was never found guilty in any court of law? This is only your opinion. Nasty Pelosi's last impeachment of Trump was about this, and the Democrat senate exonerated him. It's just another unconstitutional attempt to keep Trump off the ballot. Enough said on that.

Your jokes about Trump and Biden were funny. I was not offended by any of them because I know the difference between a joke and reality. You have a good sense of humor. Keep it up.

PS. I'm still working on Rachael's book. It is a rather lengthy tome, but I will get there. I can see the jist of it. It's about the history of Socialism in America, and I have no doubt that she is going to try to bring Trump into it. I have watched her on CNBC and am familiar with her way of making false accusations. But I'll read on. Perhaps you can give me your take on Ted Cruz's book. It's a rather long read as well.

Earl Harris III

Mary,

I appreciate it when you and others attach links to information reasearched and shared with former classmates. Revealing sources has a couple of benefits. First, it allows the reader to get more indepth information on the subject, if desired. Second, can shed light on potential bias, if any, regarding the source being cited. Both are important if our goal is to be better informed and discerning participants on this forum.

Earl Harris III

DeWitt and Richard,

I'm impressed with the effort that both of you are making in sharing books by Rachel Maddow and Ted Cruz. I hope that both of you will share what you have come to learn as a result of having read the books. It takes courage to accept the challenge where you have committed to reading something recommended by a member from the opposing side of the aisle. Good luck and best wishes! Seriously.

I'm in the midst of trying to finish up on a few books of my own, but one of them is Maddow's book, Prequel. I agree that it's a pretty daunting read, but I'm pleased to say that IMHO that so far it seems to be a well-researched historical look into the period prior to and shortly after America's involvement in WWII when our democracy was facing peril as many sympathetic activists were pushing the pro-Nazi agenda.

DeWitt, could you please provide me with the title of Ted Cruz's book? I may give it a read after I'm done with my current stack. Thanks.

Bill Kaehler

Katie, re: #12248

1. Both Biden and Trump have mishandled classified documents, IMHO.  The courts will decide if, as President, Trump’s actions were illegal.  Biden will not face such prosecution.  Clinton did far worse than either of them, but “crickets”.  I see a trend there.  Comey doesn’t remember much under oath:  Zero credibility.
2. There have been multiple examples of election fraud caught on video.  But none of these examples would have changed the election outcome.  Label that as you wish.
3.  You are trying to compare apples to oranges, which is disingenuous.  Investigation is different than persecution.  BTW, “jaw boning” by the President is a practice long considered normal and democratic.
4. There are some 45,000 hours of video footage (maybe a lot more) that show evidence of no wrongdoing by many participants in the protest.  Multiple participants were invited and escorted into the Capital bldg., per video footage.  Some of those  participants are in jail or pending punishment.  They are political prisoners.  Democracies do not take political prisoners. 

These answers to your questions are factual, interspersed with a small measure of opinion.  Your opinion that “ trump is one of the despicable human beings to ever walk the Earth” is pure emotional rhetoric ignoring world history.  Careful, do not INSTIGATE unwanted behavior, as you accuse Trump of doing. As a reminder, the initial post we are speaking of is about maintaining our democracy as stated by President Biden.

Your facts/opinions and mine have been posted.  No need for further debate.  And hooray, I kept it under 300 words.

Mary Powers (Evans)

Katie Baribeau (Moore)

1. Both Biden and Trump have mishandled classified documents, IMHO.  The courts will decide if, as President, Trump’s actions were illegal.  Biden will not face such prosecution.  Clinton did far worse than either of them, but “crickets”.  I see a trend there.  Comey doesn’t remember much under oath:  Zero credibility.

​This was an answer given to trump's taking classified documents.  This is my reply.  First, Hillary was investigated by a committee headed by the Justice department.  NPR reported the late on a Friday, when news is released that they don't want to hit the news cycles, a Friday dump, Senator Grassley released a letter in which the statement said the state department had concluded its 3 year investigation, begun in 2016, "had found no persuasive evidence of systematic, deliberate mishandling of classified information."  This was released during the trump administration so if trump felt there was any proof of wrongdoing, I'm sure his minions would have carried on.  It was reported that Hillary was careless, but there was not proof of intent to distribute.  So, let's be clear, President Biden, trump and Clinton mishandled top secret information, this does not make it equal.  trump mishandled far more documents than either of the other two.  Prosecutors have presented evidence that trump knowingly broke the law AND obstructed the investigation  The FBI examined thousands of emails from Clinton's private server with 8 containing top secret on the material  compare that with trump having more than 325 classified documents, some being the most secret of information.  trump proved intent when he asked people to lie, tried to cover it up, and purposely moved documents from place to place so they wouldn't be found by investigators.  He also left them in open areas and showed them off to visitors.  As foolish as it was for Hillary to store those documents on a private server, it was never even suggested that that were easily found by enemies of the US.  trump stored  his in the open at Mar-a-Lago while entertaining people who are not friendly to the US.  President Biden cooperated completely with the investigation.  In saying Hillary or President Biden were the worst is showing no understanding of the issue.  I'm so over the victim trump.......he's always the victim, everyone is out to get him  while I sit here and play the world's smallest violin.  Of course, the FBI, the Justice Department, the Department of the Archives are all Democrats or incompetent because they do their jobs and don't bow to trump, thank the universe!  Maybe, just maybe they are out to get trump because he is despicable and a liar and did most of what he is being charged with. President Biden and Hillary Clinton have already been exonerated.  If you MAGA/trumpies think trump is so innocent, why not get the 91 charges over with by cooperating with the process.  

Katie Baribeau (Moore)

Mary, I came up alarmed.  I do think global climate change is alarming.  I think we have the information to do better but when you have some politicians questioning scientists, who have spent years studying climate change, it creates division and lack of motivation to do anything.   Somehow, call me silly, I believe the climate scientists over a politician every day.  But hey, we will probably be on our next journey before anything devastating, who cares...........except for maybe our children, grandchildren and great grandchildren.  I really don't care if we have had massive climate changes in the past and should expect them now.  The climate changes of the past have greatly affected species and even the Earth.  The ice in Siberia is melting and an anciet worm has been revived as well as ancient viruses escaping into our air........we've done so good with Covid I'm sure that's of no concern.  Clean water, who wants that badly enough to have regulations about dumping hazardous materials in our water.  Clean air, no needs here, except it is causing diseases at numbers we have never seen.  

Jim Coats

SNARKY VITRIOL.  It's so much fun to tune back in and see nothing has changed.  And BTW.  I have made my last friendly overture to you and came up empty, Mr. Lorts.  We can just agree that I'm right and you're wrong.

SOMEBODY MENTIONED IT'S SUNDAY.

Anyone who says their wedding was the best day of their life has clearly never had two candy bars fall at once from a vending machine.

The biggest joke on mankind is that computers have begun asking humans to prove they aren't a robot.

When a kid says "Daddy, I want mommy" that's the kid version of "I'd like to speak to your supervisor."

Last night the internet stopped working so I spent a few hours with my family.  They seem like good people.

Weight loss goal:  To be able to clip my toenails and breathe at the same time.

Buh dump bump!  I'll be here all week!!

Note:  Too lazy to count the words.  It is what it is, BUT I am using 14 point type so you old farts can read it.

P.S.  I'm not worried about climate change.  I'm worried about whether I should toss those flanges I have had in a drawer in my garage for 20 years or just keep them 'til I die.

David Rainwater

Mary, I came up as alarmed as well.  That's probably because I have some training in ecology (actually first dating back to a summer course I took in high school).  Also, my wife is/was an ecologist.  My concern is not for me per se, as I'm pretty well insulated, but for future generations.  It's not so much that the earth hasn't had hot spells before, but the rapidity of change will necessarily reduce biodiversity and I think increase the likelihood of unexpected consequences. 

Jim Coats

David:  Re: your #12269.  HUH??  I'm just conflicted as whether or not I should break out my coat because it's 39º and raining here.

P.S.  Does anyone know if there is that little circle standing for degrees on my keyboard??  I can't find it.

Mike Lorts

CHS MEMORIES 

One afternoon a group of us crammed into Gerry Bamberlins 51 Ford were cruising around the CHS campus. There was a girls PE class playing soccer on the NW corner. We ere being the usual obnoxious boys and yelling at the girls. Gerry decided to really show off and revved this engine and popped the clutch. Well, the u joints snapped and the drive shaft hit the pavement. We piled out of the car and proceeded to push the Ford to the side of the road and sheepishly walked to our classes listening to the girls laughing.

Earl Harris III

Jim,

I'm not sure what device you are using but with an iPhone or iPad you can do this: https://www.iphonelife.com/content/how-to-type-temperature-degree-symbol-iphone

Specifically, type 0 and hold it down. The degree symbol can be accessed by sliding your finger to the left.

I don't know if this works with an apple computer or laptop keyboard,  but I'm assuming so.

Also, if you dictate your messages, it will often put the symbol in there for you.

Hope this helps. 

Michael Kelly

Ive said this before. Ill repeat. Ask Google  "What has been the increase in Temperature of the Earth over the last 100 years?" Last I checked it left me as Unconcerned. I stlll haven't asked when the Sky will Fall, last I heard a Family of Chicken's with the last name of 'Little" were conducting this Research. 

What does concern me is the amount of Seismic Activity with the Geiser at Yellowstone Park. According to Sattelite photos there is a very large concentration of MAGMA below surface of Earth of a signigicant signature below Northern California, Nevada, Oregon, and Idaho which Seismologists indicate may be the sign of a Volcanic buildup of major proportions.  However, some of the Seismologists don't consider this significant. Note that I dd not say MAGA, I said MAGMA. 

Richard Deshong

DeWitt, sorry to burst your bubble, but section 3 of article 14 does not require a criminal conviction to be applied to someone who participates in an insurrection or provides aid and comfort to those that do. If you want clarification as to why, may I suggest you simply google “does section 3 of article 14 require a trial”. Of course, that would mean you must do two things “real conservatives” loath – research and reading lengthy explanations.

Perhaps the Camelback High Message Forum resident attorney, Mr. Kelly Esq., can help explain it to you.

As for UnWoke, the book by Ted Cruz, I read it within a week of our agreement to debate. I find the biggest difference between his book and Prequel is one is reporting documented facts that can be easily verified, and the other is a group of opinions that are meant to gain support from far-right followers of Trump to reassure his reelection. I still remember the Ted Cruz from before the 2016 election when he was a supporter of democracy and was willing to reach across the aisle to reach compromise policy decisions that benefitted the majority of Americans. How anybody who had his wife, father and self so insulted by Trump can turn tail and excuse his behavior just to keep a job, I’ll never understand. Nor will I respect.

Jim Coats

Earl.  Thanks for the assist, but I'll say what I said to David.  HUH??  You guys are so tech'd up.  Actually I was kinda joking when I asked the "degree-circle" question.  I don't mind typing out "degrees," as long as it doesn't take me over 1,000 words.

Also, I try NEVER to post on this or any other site from my phone.  I treat my phone (almost) like a phone, in that I speak to people on it.  I do admit looking at the internet....NO!  Not those sites!  Sheesh!  I still contend that Mr. Bell rolls over in his grave when he sees his invention being used like a typewriter and not a personal interaction medium.

I've gotta get a scarf!

P.S.  Richard.  I don't do lengthy research.  I get my facts from Double Bubble Gum wrappers.

Richard Deshong

Has anyone noticed that so far none of the top-secret documentations Biden had in his possession have been identified? Surely by now someone in the Freedom Caucus could have been able to identify at least one such document and leak it to the press.

Did you know that when a President goes on any travel outside the USA his agenda is classified as Top Secret. Of course, after the trip is over there is no need to declassify it and I don’t imagine the National Archive makes much of an attempt to collect all the copies that were issued to everyone involved with the planning and execution of the trip. Maybe they should.

Michael Kelly

Richard DeShong   So the requirements of the Due  Process clause, in the 14 th Amendment, don't require the Conviction by Trial of a Claim of Insurrection. Well, that's great, might as well charge Biden right along with Trump, and on and on and on we can go. No end to the Chaos that could be created. But then that's how the Folks who loathe the US  Constitution and our Country want things, Disorder, Rebellion, In the Army we called someone who thinks as you do, a Knob Dicker. Always wanting to Tweak things so that you, wonderful you, can make the World a better place. Your theory Richard comes from  the Volokh Conspiracy Daily and was written by Ilya Somin, and the key factor that she uses to support that the Colorado Supreme Court  can remove  Trump from the Colorado Ballot is rooted in the claim that all Trump needs to be found liable for  is a Civil Charge of Insurrection which does not involve incarceration but Civil Penalties, based upon a finding of Liability by the Preponderance of Evidence, as opposed to Guilt Beyond a Reasonable Doubt, a more stringent standard, or as she states the Colorado Court found by Clear and Convincing Evidence that Trump was civilly liable for the promotion of an Insurrection. So if we assume that Ilya Somin is a Thorough Scholar, and a Truth  Teller, then in the Colorado Court consider in making  its decision, did the Colorado Court consider ALL THE EVIDENCE THAT WAS INDICATIVE OF WHAT TRUMP ACTUALLY SAID ON JAN. 6, 2021. IF THE COLORADO COURT DID SO, THEN THERE IS NOT AN HONEST WAY ANY OF THEM COULD DECIDE THE WAY THEY DID. 

BUT LETS ALL SEE WHAT THE TRANSCRIPTS SAY AS TO WHAT THIS COURT CONSIDERED, AND I AM SPEAKING  OF THE COURT THAT MADE THIS FINDING AGAINST TRUMP. i KNOW WHAT I THINK, SO IF YOU WANT TO BE TOTALLY STRAIGHT UP, YOU ORDER AND PAY FOR THE TRANSCRIPTS AND EVIDENCE CONSIDERED TO REACH THE CIVIL LIABILITY AGAINST TRUMP FOR INCITING AN INSURRECTION IN THIS CASE. BECAUSE IF ILYA SOMIN IS BLOWING SMOKE, THEN HER CREDIBILITY IS HIGHLY SUSPECT, AND SHE NEEDS TO RESIGN HER POST AS DID PROFESSOR GAY AT HARVARD LAW SCHOOL.

Thanks Jim Coats, Bill Rihs, and Greg Watkins, for quoting what Trump actually said on Jan 6, 2021, for as you Correctly Stated, The liberals/progressives have no room for Truth in their chosen Dialogue, manipulation and influence of those who don't have the time or inclination to read is their Goal. Knob Dickers is what they are. 

Frank Wiley

A Scary Situation--The vast majority of Our Class never served in the Military.  You who have not served, even know Our Military has a "Chain of Command".  It goes from the President, to the "Secretary of Defense" who is Civilian/Military, to the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.  For three days the SECOND in Command was out of Service.  That may have happened before, but what has never happened before is that the President had no idea the 2nd in Military Command was AWOL.  Joe had no idea his Secretary of Defense was out of service.  Think about that?    Richard--Joe Biden had documents in his possession that the former of the U.S. was not authorized to possess.  He broke the Law!!!!!  No prosecution!!!  If Trump, who was authorized to have documents because he WAS a President, is charged, do you think that is equal justice?

Katie Baribeau (Moore)

Frank, easy to answer.  If trump would have cooperated from the beginning he would not have been held accountable either.  But instead, he hid the documents, even going so far as taking them to another location, to avoid giving them back.  So, after trump heard the Archives wanted to classified documents back he did not cooperate as President Biden did. Quite often people who cooperate get a better deal or are let go.  All you have to do is look at the plea deals made in Georgia for people tampering with an honest election.  Those who cooperated got minor penalties....that won't happen for those who refuse to cooperate.

Mike Lorts

Mike K, 

You thanked Jim, Bill R and Greg for quoting what Trump said at the Jan 6 rally. You can get the transcript of the entire rambling speech on Google. It's full of the usual BS. One conspiracy after the other. Towards the end there is paragraph saying "we need to fight, we need to fight like hell to get our country back ".

Mary Powers (Evans)

Richard Deshong

Mr. Kelly, I wonder what Mouy Griffin and his attorneys would think of your read of Section 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution.

Michael Kelly

I am not into "namd dropping" recognition Richard! It is tasteless, and demonstrates an unhealthy need for recognition kinda like jumping the Grand Canyon on a motorcycle and breaking every bone in your body. I think that is more suitable for a Vicarious experience!

Frank Wiley

It gets worse.  Lloyd Austin was in intensive care and his second in command at the Defense Department was on vacation while Joe Biden was on vacation and wasn't even aware that Austin was out of service.  This was happening while the Houthis and other Iranian proxies are attacking our bases and firing rockets near our ships in the Red Sea!  Insane!!